Upcoming ACM/Comittee Positions [Archive]

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Hex

1st May 2007, 19:51

Well Jan mentioned that noone has put themselves forward for Committee positions, and the ACM is just round the corner. I feel its probably about time I helped run something (been at Uni 3 years and done jack in that respect) and as I no longer have need for a part time job I have more spare time on my hands. However, I have little to no knowledge of whats involved with ANY of the positions on the Committee. I don't wanna stick my hand up and volunteer for something only to find out its outwith my capabilities. So with that in mind, can current/past committee members give me a run down of whats involved with the various positions?

1st May 2007, 22:06

the treasurer handles all acounts. i.e. tuck shop, lan fee, component purchases etc. in theory, that's it.

LastChanceHotel

2nd May 2007, 03:16

The server admin takes flak for the first couple of LANs until they figure out how to run and administer Source and Battlefield 2 servers well, or until they find the tools to do this.

Then they spend a frantic couple of days before each LAN getting gameservers working and tested, set up all the cables, switches, servers etc at the LAN, help pack up, and then do pretty much nothing until 3 days before the next LAN.

You need to know how DHCP and routing work, you need to know the in's and out's of running a Source server from the command line on Windows, and you need to know how to Google. More importantly you need to know how to take abuse occasionally, especially in the first couple of lans :P Other than that, that's it.

Hex

2nd May 2007, 10:23

Btw lads are any of you intending to carry on in your current committee positions?

DAve

2nd May 2007, 11:26

Well Jan mentioned that noone has put themselves forward for Committee positions, and the ACM is just round the corner.
The post descriptions were on the wiki (now lost, presumed dead), and the post definitions should be in the constitution. I can't find those any more - little help?

Serving on the committee is a really good experience, it's very different to turning up and gaming once a month and fantastic bonus for the CV. Plus, it's a chance to give back to the club.

When is the AGM scheduled?

YegaDoyai

2nd May 2007, 12:20

I can only assume Jan is running again, hell you've finally got it all working you get very little flak from the members for the work you actually do (time keeping not included) so you may as well reap the rewards.

Fil2eFly

2nd May 2007, 12:32

yeah jst what i was thinking, jan dose a good job of looking after the interwebn and all its wonders most of the time

Bluepixie

2nd May 2007, 12:35

I'm proposing to have the AGM on the 31st of May. There will be a news item up shortly.

To clarify.

THE COMMITTEE
4.1 The Society shall be administrated by an elected Committee, composed of the following posts as ordered by seniority:
1. President
2. Secretary
3. Treasurer
4. Server Admin
5. OCM
6. Web Admin

4.1.1 At least two of the committee posts of President, Secretary and Treasurer must be fully matriculated students of the University of Glasgow at the time of their appointment. No person may be permitted to hold more than one Committee post at a time.

4.2 The President shall be responsible for the overall operation of the Society, overseeing the functions of other Committee members. The President shall be charged with performing or appropriately delegating tasks for which no particular Committee member is responsible, in addition to functioning as primary liaison with organisations external to the Society.

4.3 The Secretary shall be responsible for keeping the minutes of Society meetings and conducting routine administrative tasks.

4.4 The Treasurer shall be responsible for any and all funds amassed by the Society, administrating its bank accounts and finances.

4.5 The Server Admin shall be responsible for maintaining any servers required to ensure the smooth operation of the society networked events.

4.6 The O.C.M. shall be responsible for publicising of forthcoming Society events, and also for oversight of the Society website and publications. In addition to these duties, the O.C.M. will help the Committee in the general running of the society as required by the Committee, in particular the exercising of specific duties of other Committee members where the member in question is unable to perform these duties.

4.7 The Web Admin shall be responsible for the creation, maintenance and editing of the society website.

4.8 The Committee shall decide upon the events and activities undertaken by the Society.

4.9.1 Such decision shall be taken at Committee meetings, which shall be held in an easily accessible place in Glasgow with at least one week’s notice given. This notice may only be waved in case of emergency. Committee meetings shall be held at least once per University term.

4.9.2 Two thirds of the presently active Committee shall be the quorum for Committee meetings, chaired by the most senior member present.

4.9.3 Committee decisions shall be made by majority consensus and subject to review at later Committee meetings; the meeting chairperson shall have a casting vote.

4.9.4 All Committee meetings shall be open to any interested members of the Society; the minutes of all meetings shall be made available to the Society in a timely manner.

4.9.5 Any Committee member absent from two consecutive meetings without giving apology can – at the discretion of the Committee – be suspended. Until such time as the Committee is unanimously satisfied that the absences were justified, the duties of the suspended Committee member shall be carried out by another Committee or Society member nominated by the remaining Committee. If not thus satisfied after one month of absence, the Committee may appoint a temporary replacement for that post, subject to ratification at an Extraordinary General Meeting: the suspended Committee member may stand for re-election.

Sid

2nd May 2007, 14:28

I've stuck the old thread about the constitution for GUNS. It really could do with an update though.

Jan: I really hope you go for the Server Admin position again - I think you did a good job.

Phizz

2nd May 2007, 14:34

If you don't feel like reading the full load Hex. Pixie has summarised them nicely on the AGM thread in Events.

Hex

2nd May 2007, 15:20

Jan, please be server admin again, you seem to have it pretty much under control! Thx for the info pixie, having read all that I think I'd be happy/capable enough to be Secretary, Treasurer or OCM (assuming the latter position still exists). Having read the thread on the AGM in the events forum, I gather that nominations are taken from the floor for Committee positions. Does this mean we can turn up and nominate ourselves for positions, or do I have to garner some support from other people?

Fyndir

2nd May 2007, 15:27

Does this mean we can turn up and nominate ourselves for positions, or do I have to garner some support from other people?

I believe that at the last AGM it went along the lines of "Ok, next position...Treasurer. Old Treasurer is Exxuuxssuussus (spelling might be a bit off =P), does anyone want to try to usurp Exxususuxusxu's position? *Ru stands up* Ok, Ru....Exxxuxusuxususuxusuxuux.....MORTAL KOMBAT!"

...

ok so I might have made the last bit up, but wouldn't it be awesome?

2nd May 2007, 15:33

i'd pure lu kang him the face then do the shiva stomp, haw haw man

Hex

2nd May 2007, 15:34

I believe that at the last AGM it went along the lines of "Ok, next position...Treasurer. Old Treasurer is Exxuuxssuussus (spelling might be a bit off =P), does anyone want to try to usurp Exxususuxusxu's position? *Ru stands up* Ok, Ru....Exxxuxusuxususuxusuxuux.....MORTAL KOMBAT!"
...

ok so I might have made the last bit up, but wouldn't it be awesome?

rofl, awesome post! So we can in fact nominate ourselves yes?

2nd May 2007, 15:39

yes, hex, you can nominate yourself for whatever position your dying to slip your itchy feet into. maybe its all of them?

Hex

2nd May 2007, 15:48

yes, hex, you can nominate yourself for whatever position your dying to slip your itchy feet into. maybe its all of them?

Lol, geez, just trying to be helpful! I've really enjoyed the LANs over the past few years and I wanna give something back - I'm not trying to steal positions away from people if they're happy to continue, rather just to help fill vacant positions. Nobody has yet stated if they're intending to continue what they're doing....

YegaDoyai

2nd May 2007, 15:54

He wants presidency! (what the hell other role would you ever _want_ to do?) Ru v Hex

Two men enter, one man leaves!

Hex

2nd May 2007, 16:04

He wants presidency!

Lol no I don't! Presidency = Ultimate Responsibility, I'm not really leader material lol. I think of myself more as a mid-level minion :-D

Sid

2nd May 2007, 16:09

I think I may run for president after all.

YegaDoyai

2nd May 2007, 16:10

You want to fight Ru?
You should have just said.

2nd May 2007, 23:41

Sid loves me. there will be no fight, i support him with all my love! xXx!

Fil2eFly

3rd May 2007, 00:37

damn , and i wated to see a tournament,
posibly some form on "unreal" tournament... in 2007

could have called it...
"The fight for pause presidency"

LastChanceHotel

3rd May 2007, 02:47

We should call a danceoff.

Hex

3rd May 2007, 10:54

We should call a danceoff.

Now this I would have to see. Also I would have to videotape it. Youtube FTW!

YegaDoyai

3rd May 2007, 15:16

I think you mean a walkoff. These prettyboys strutting thier stuff, maybe we can get David Bowie to call it?

Question is, which one is zoolander?

Sideshow

3rd May 2007, 15:35

I don't think that's really a question that anyone is in any doubt of the answer.

Thanatos

3rd May 2007, 15:50

and which has the 'bluesteel' look

3rd May 2007, 20:01

me obv. havnt you seem my chaos space marines?

ohhhh im sucha geek, i see it now

Sid

3rd May 2007, 20:59

Hansel wins the walk-off, remember.

Bluepixie

3rd May 2007, 21:36

This is quality, looking forward to it. :D

Fyndir

4th May 2007, 18:28

One of the many duties that seems to have become the OCMs this year (and rightly so) is keeping an eye on the Pausegaming Inbox and passing on any relevant emails to the rest of the committee for their perusal.

One such email arrived today, from the content of the email you will come to understand just how challenging being the OCM can be:

See attach
http://www.iparo.hk/

-----
Ramsey slapped Brodicks should
What the hell does that mean?
Ramsey, youre not helping. But
Ill tell her at supper. Yes, h

Attached image:

Hex

5th May 2007, 17:22

Maybe you should be linking that image with a "NSFW" tag? Good to know you're keeping us up to date with pertinent information :-P

Fyndir

5th May 2007, 17:32

Maybe you should be linking that image with a "NSFW" tag? Good to know you're keeping us up to date with pertinent information :-P

Feh.

I had two options, I could just upload it to here as part of the post, or I could go upload it somewhere else and then link it and ruin the effect.

Some forums have a spoiler code which hides things behind a button, so you click the button and the hidden image / text comes down into view. Which is quite sexy tbh.

Hex

5th May 2007, 19:13

Some forums have a spoiler code which hides things behind a button, so you click the button and the hidden image / text comes down into view. Which is quite sexy tbh.

That does indeed sound pretty sexy, I saw a similar thing earlier on a forum whereby spoilers in the text were blacked out, but if you ran the cursor over the text it would highlight in white. Spoilers if you want em, not if you don't. Probs OTT for this forum, but if Sid has spare time on his hands it would be neato ^^

Fyndir

5th May 2007, 20:29

That does indeed sound pretty sexy, I saw a similar thing earlier on a forum whereby spoilers in the text were blacked out, but if you ran the cursor over the text it would highlight in white. Spoilers if you want em, not if you don't. Probs OTT for this forum, but if Sid has spare time on his hands it would be neato ^^

Well he IS talking about re-designing the site (I think) over the Summer, so he must have spare time aplenty. ;)

Tiberio

12th May 2007, 21:16

Coming along to the AGM just to watch the battle of the titans :)

Sid

16th May 2007, 01:09

Please note that I will not be running for the new "Web Admin" position that has been created, so the opportunity is there for someone new to continue maintenance and development of the site.

Hex

16th May 2007, 01:36

Hopefully someone will take this on.....I'd love to in theory, but I have little experience with website design/maintenance and I don't feel I'd get the time to do a very good job of it on top of trying to finish my degree (I'll be in 4th Year next year). Of all the committee positions I'd say this one potentially adds up to the most work. It's a shame to see you leave the position Sid, the job you've done with the website and forums is excellent.

LastChanceHotel

16th May 2007, 14:46

Anyone who runs for web admin will need to have experience of PHP, an understanding of what mysql is/does, and HTML/CSS. Having hacked around with forums, galleries, php pages etc would be an advantage.

Please, someone take this position. Please. As otherwise it'll fall on the "server admin" to tape everything on the site together!

DAve

16th May 2007, 15:18

Anyone who runs for web admin will need to have...
Or be willing to learn the basics, of course.

Hex

16th May 2007, 21:41

4.9.3 Committee decisions shall be made by majority consensus and subject to review at later Committee meetings; the meeting chairperson shall have a casting vote.

It's occurred to me that now the committee is 6 people rather than five, giving the chairperson a casting vote means that in the event of a tie on a full committee the president gets 2 votes. In other societies it is common practise for the president *only* to get a vote in the event of a tie. While I realise that removing the presidential vote would result in there never being a tie (unless a committee member was absent) this doesn't seem very even one way and another. Is there no way we can make for an odd number of committee members?

Secondly, I feel that with the AGM coming up and people being voted for by consensus of the membership, it seems appropriate that people are given time to consider their decisions based on the plans of those who stand. Hence I propose that all those planning to stand for election give at least 1 weeks notice of their intention to stand (and for which position they intend to stand for) and provide a manifesto of their plans (however big or small) for said committee position. This way, the membership will have plenty of time to make a wise and unhurried choice.

EDIT: It occurs to me that with regard to the second point I should probs lead by example, so here goes:

I intend to run for the position of Secretary.

Should I be elected as Secretary of the wonderful society that is Pause Gaming, I would endeavour to ensure the smooth running of the society, and that we go from strength to strength as we have this year. I would ensure that the minutes of any and all committee meetings are made available on the website and/or forum, which for whatever reasons hasn't happened this year. I would also endeavour to make my vote on any committee decisions representative of the views of the majority of the membership; after all the committee exists to act on behalf of the rest of the society, so any decisions it undertakes should reflect the membership. Finally I would do my best to help any other members of the society (committee or otherwise) with any problems they might have. I've really enjoyed the LANs I've attended over the last 3 years, and I would really enjoy the opportunity to give something back.

phycho

18th May 2007, 03:41

Fyndir

18th May 2007, 03:48

You don't have to be a member of the Uni, I think it's as long as the majority of the society and a majority of the committee are Students it's all good.

I THINK.

Someone else confirm these rules for me?

Strings

18th May 2007, 03:54

Fyndir

18th May 2007, 03:56

I know who he is, he's been to one LAN that I know of and me and him had a great argument on the MG forums a while back. ;)

Sid

18th May 2007, 08:54

phycho: No - you don't need to be a Glasgow Uni student to be a committee member - come along and give it a go! Good to hear that there's more people interested in running.

Strings: phycho came to one or two of the LANs earlier this year with his mate. The chaps with the laptops who were sitting behind me.

Hex

18th May 2007, 10:24

4.1.1 At least two of the committee posts of President, Secretary and Treasurer must be fully matriculated students of the University of Glasgow at the time of their appointment. No person may be permitted to hold more than one Committee post at a time.

So yeah for the server admin position anyone can be elected. I must say though, you're up against reasonably tough competition, Jan has been doing a pretty good job of the server IMO (assuming he intends to run again that is).

Incidentally I'm slightly dissapointed that noone has yet even responded to my suggestion of a post detailing their intentions with regard to possible committee positions. I live in hope that this is because you're busy writing manifestos, rather than because you're all studiously ignoring it....

LastChanceHotel

18th May 2007, 17:35

does someone on the comittee have to be a member of the uni itself? I would possibly be quite intrested in running for server sysadmin - have (most of) the skills required already and have ran the setup for a few events of my own in the past.

have spoke to lastchancehotel before at the first official pausegaming event.

Oh, I think I remember who you are!

Perhaps we could set up a 'Server Administrator, Second Class" position or something.

So yeah for the server admin position anyone can be elected. I must say though, you're up against reasonably tough competition, Jan has been doing a pretty good job of the server IMO (assuming he intends to run again that is).

I'd very much like to make it a group thing, rather than a single individual's job: If you want to do server stuff, the best way is by just getting involved and running (or helping to run) a server :-) The 'official position' is really there so you can't run away: it ensures someone's always answerable for the "Why the FUCK is the match server hiccuping!! JAN!!" questions, especially when they're particularly important during tournaments and stuff.

Having said that there's more than enough positions (hint hint: webmaster) that have enough wiggle room to cover the same kind of things.

YegaDoyai

18th May 2007, 17:46

good call jan.

Phizz

18th May 2007, 18:31

LastChanceHotel

18th May 2007, 18:57

With most Uni societies commitee members are able to call on minions to aid them with their position. Sounds like you should have a few to help out Jan.

If you're willing to give me so basic training with regards to settting up and maintaining a server I'd be more than willing to act as a minion. Ditto for Yega and Fyndir I'm guessing as they helped quite a bit while you were indisposed.

Woohoo! Another minion!

Unfortunately I won't be able to do this for this last LAN of the semester, but I'd be very interested in doing it at the start of next year. Usually things start getting into gear 2-3 weeks prior to Fresher's week, this might be a good time to start showing everyone how stuff works, and get things sorted ready for the uber leet next season. I think it could be quite interesting to see what we can do with a full crew, so to speak... I reckon a lot more would be possible.

We're already part way there: we have a (now permanant, as the memory's been upgraded) online server for CSS and other things if need be, a permanant website and a gameserver for LANs. With any luck we might be able to put together a whole ready-made LAN setup, just unroll the cat5 trunking and plug in.

Well, aside from configuring everything its pretty close to that already. but I'm going waay off topic here..

Jan

Hex

18th May 2007, 19:22

Fair point Jan, anyone who's capable should be given access to the server. I'm assuming it's all done with remote login via putty/ssh yeah? I don't know the commands for the individual dedicated servers but I'm sure it ain't that hard tbh :-)

Muppet

18th May 2007, 19:38

We're already part way there: we have a (now permanant, as the memory's been upgraded) online server for CSS and other things if need be.

Sadly i'm still not convinced 256mb is enough to cut it for the CSS server without getting massive amounts of choke with players on - but on another note, it does serve a public vent server.

DAve

19th May 2007, 14:12

With most Uni societies commitee members are able to call on minions to aid them with their position
If you're willing to give me so basic training with regards to settting up and maintaining a server I'd be more than willing to act as a minion.
The best way to learn is by doing.
If you're up for maintaining a server, I can provide a (cheap, old, shit) test box for messing around with. Maybe a donation to the club?

I started with a 550 celeron and run a few servers from that and had literally no idea what I was doing when I started. The club's in a much better position since then, and might have a higher expectation from the server admin.

I still say the best training is on the job. No one's expecting the new server admin to be perfect out of the box, but there's more than enough of us to lend a helping hand.

Muppet

19th May 2007, 14:28

Sadly i'm still not convinced 256mb is enough to cut it for the CSS server without getting massive amounts of choke with players on - but on another note, it does serve a public vent server.

Turns out 'top' doesn't return a realistic value of memory usage - so we need to organise another CSS match soon to load the server with 10+ players.

Any specific day suit people better?

Fyndir

19th May 2007, 14:34

I still say the best training is on the job. No one's expecting the new server admin to be perfect out of the box, but there's more than enough of us to lend a helping hand.

New rule:

Server Admin must be able to take constant abuse for the duration of every LAN, all problems (including a players' inability to hit anything but scenery) will be blamed on the Server Admin.

The cry of "Fucks sake Jan, this is your fault." has been heard many times over the past year, it has become a mantra for us all, even outside of the LAN we can find some twisted logic by which to blame all problems on Jan, for he is the Server Admin, and it MUST be his fault.

We can only hope that whoever becomes the new Server Admin (whether it's Jan or someone else is yet to be seen. =O) will accept such abuse cheerfully, because if they don't they will almost certainly become depressed and kill themselves...and it will be all Jan's fault when this happens.

Hex

19th May 2007, 15:19

Rofl @ Fyndir's post. I propose an amendment to section 10 of the constitution:

10.2 All bad happenings ever, be they server related or otherwise, shall be Jan's fault.

(Just Kidding Jan :P)

@Stuart - I'm good for most evenings, you guys can grab me on steam friends or via the forum. I think you're correct in your thinking though, the server needs to be beefed up a fair bit to be able to handle the website and the CS:S server. RAM is very cheap these days, and when I first suggested the server I suggested we all chip in for it, so I for one would be willing to donate if neccesary.

LastChanceHotel

19th May 2007, 18:24

I really should check the forums more often, so my posts don't consist entirely of responding to other people's comments. :P

The 256MB isn't the best for running a gameserver, but I do have another 128MB or so free that I was going to use to run a RADIUS and MySQL server, which I can probably do without for now. By the way, here's some things I've learned about making 'top' stop lying:

top - 17:11:19 up 1 day, 4:37, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.02, 0.00
Tasks: 132 total, 1 running, 131 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie
Cpu(s): 1.3% us, 0.2% sy, 0.0% ni, 96.7% id, 1.7% wa, 0.0% hi, 0.0% si
Mem: 524632k total, 520140k used, 4492k free, 4044k buffers
Swap: 524280k total, 213428k used, 310852k free, 299832k cached

PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND
32307 root 15 0 1944 896 672 R 2.0 0.2 0:00.01 top
1 root 16 0 1688 200 164 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.10 init
2 root 34 19 0 0 0 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.00 ksoftirqd/0
3 root RT 0 0 0 0 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.00 watchdog/0
4 root 10 -5 0 0 0 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.00 events/0
5 root 13 -5 0 0 0 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.01 khelper
6 root 13 -5 0 0 0 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.00 kthread
7 root 10 -5 0 0 0 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.00 xenwatch
8 root 10 -5 0 0 0 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.00 xenbus
13 root 10 -5 0 0 0 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.00 kblockd/0
17 root 20 -5 0 0 0 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.00 khubd
97 root 15 0 0 0 0 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.05 pdflush
98 root 15 0 0 0 0 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.01 pdflush
100 root 20 -5 0 0 0 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.00 aio/0
99 root 15 0 0 0 0 S 0.0 0.0 0:05.68 kswapd0
616 root 10 -5 0 0 0 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.00 kseriod
692 root 16 -5 0 0 0 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.00 ata/0

That is the output of 'top' on the webserver. To work out the amount of RAM that is actually free, you should:

1. Take the value 'cached', and subtract the value 'swap used' from it. This gives you the amount of stuff it's storing in RAM to make disk access faster.

2. Take the value 'used', and subtract 'buffers' from it. Add the value you got in 1., and add the 'mem free' value. This is the amount of RAM that is currently sitting unused.

Now, pain in the ass you'll say, and you'd be right. Linux will use *all* the RAM you have left if you allow it to - it uses it to keep stuff cached, so it doesn't have to access the disk all the time. The best way of establishing RAM usage is to reboot the box, and as soon as it comes back up, log in and run 'top'. The value you get for 'mem free' will be the amount of RAM left sitting idle, without pushing little-used stuff into the swap.

Regarding fyndir's comments: it's entirely true. After a LAN or two, you develop 'thick skin': commonly referred to as selective deafness. If a player has a big enough problem with the game that it justifies your immediate attention (rather than 'google for a solution and fuck around with the server in the meantime), then they'll just have to get off their ass and go complain to you in person, rather than shouting across the room. Just use their comments as 'preliminary feedback' so you can work out the symptoms: their problems don't need answering immediately just a solution found sometime soon... they're only playing games :P

Ahem. anyway, moving swiftly on...

Yeah, best way to learn is doing. Finding/recieving/stealing/scrounging an old <500mhz box is the best way to go. Go download a CentOS install CD, pop it in the drive, and have a play. Try setting up a CSS server on it (you'll want >64mb ram though). Try to figure out how to add another user, and let them become admin. figure out running a webserver, a home router, windows 'samba' file sharing... the lot. Try and crash your box. Find out what swapfile hell feels like. It's all good things to know.

I have a 200mhz box (I think) sitting doing nothing here, it's an old customers machine so the disk will need nuked - other than that, perfect linux starter box. Free to a good home (and no questions asked about its specs)

Thanatos

19th May 2007, 18:31

I have a duron 800 +board + ram + maybe case (might have been robbed by my brother) at home. If its going to be of use to anyone I can bring it up here next year. Saves it cluttering up my room :)

Sid

19th May 2007, 18:44

As a rough guide - anything slower than a Athlon XP realistically isn't going to be much good in terms of a game server at the LANs. I could get two 10-man 100-tick CS:S servers on my old XP1900+ machine - just. Mark's P4 1.7Ghz was struggling a little with two 10-mans.

I personally think we should buy a core2duo machine for the start of next term. One of those would run everything we need.

Fyndir

19th May 2007, 18:46

The main game server does run everything we need currently, doesn't it?

Muppet

19th May 2007, 18:52

The main game server does run everything we need currently, doesn't it?

A gameserver and a ventrilo server yes.. It may run it, but can't tell how well until we get everyone on the CSS server at once!

Sid

19th May 2007, 19:04

A gameserver and a ventrilo server yes.. It may run it, but can't tell how well until we get everyone on the CSS server at once!

I think Fyndir was replying to me RE: LAN gameserver.

---

Fyndir: I think it runs every game fine, but I believe it would struggle with multiple servers running simultaneously.

Muppet

19th May 2007, 19:23

I think Fyndir was replying to me RE: LAN gameserver.

---

Fyndir: I think it runs every game fine, but I believe it would struggle with multiple servers running simultaneously.

:neutral:

Hex

19th May 2007, 23:20

I think it runs every game fine, but I believe it would struggle with multiple servers running simultaneously.

When would we ever need it to though? Generally at any one time there is one big server up, and anyone wanting to play a different game will run a listen server from a personal machine. Don't get me wrong, a big beefed up server is a nice idea, but whether we really need it is a question that should be asked before money is spent.

Sid

19th May 2007, 23:36

When would we ever need it to though? Generally at any one time there is one big server up, and anyone wanting to play a different game will run a listen server from a personal machine.

Precisely - it would eliminate the need to use listen servers which results in better quality gaming.

Also, when gor and myself left a constant CS:S normal maps server and a constant fun map server up over the course of the entire LAN, we found that it was a nice little thing for people to go onto and mess around while they were waiting for the next game to start or if they weren't interested in playing the current game.

gor

19th May 2007, 23:37

When would we ever need it to though? Generally at any one time there is one big server up, and anyone wanting to play a different game will run a listen server from a personal machine. Don't get me wrong, a big beefed up server is a nice idea, but whether we really need it is a question that should be asked before money is spent.

Theres an abundance of reasons why a dual core system would be worthwhile.

Do we *need* a 'beefed up server'?

Do you *need* that £1500 rig you're planning to spend?

Hex

19th May 2007, 23:56

Do you *need* that £1500 rig you're planning to spend?

No I don't *need* it. Not for shit. I *want* it, and I have the money coming in! I wouldn't even attempt to justify that sort of purchase as anything other than indulgence, it would be futile lol, but I would like a ridiculously uber rig, so I'm gonna buy one.

I'm not saying we should not buy a better server, I'm merely saying that the money has to come from somewhere. I don't know the current state of Pause finances, I'm not the treasurer and I haven't asked him. If the money is there, sure, buy a C2D server setup. I thoroughly agree that being able to leave dedicated servers up for all the major games at once would be pretty handy. However, if the money isn't there for this, or could be better spent on something else, it's not something we absolutely have to have in order for the LANs to happen.

Strings

20th May 2007, 00:33

Getting Pause it's own decent server rig has always been the main priority with Pause's funds. This is what the LAN fee contributes towards and why we didn't sell the tuck shop goodies at really really really cheap prices.

A decent LAN rig would allow us complete peace of mind with dedicated servers. (i.e powerful enough to run a dedicated of any game with no issue).

It would be a centralised dump for game patches, utility installs and other LAN information documents. This mean would mean one place of storage for the essentials. At the moment, we get these from other members' computers... which can be messy, not very organised and tends to leave that poor member unable to play for a while.

Ru's the only one who know's how much money Pause has at the moment, but I know that it's not a tiny amount at least. I'm not sure he'd post it on the forums for all to see, but it will be disclosed at the AGM.

The current funds with the SRC grant, should go a long way towards the server. And once we're decided on what equipment we're to buy, I'm confident some of our members will contribute a little to the cause.

YegaDoyai

20th May 2007, 00:48

As Jan has proposed in the past, if all you are looking for is a server then we can get a decent spec dual core for very little money so really I don't think it should be a problem getting at least the major components. TBH if we are NOT spending the money I've been giving to the SOC on a new server or the website etc then I'll be a bit miffed. If we could wait and go quad core in august I'd be tempted, but that might be cutting it fine for freshers week lan depending on exactly when the price cuts come.

Sid

20th May 2007, 01:16

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600
Kingston 4GB(2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2-533 ECC Registered
ASUS P5B-VM SE

$913 = £462

If we have extra money I think it'd be nice to stick it in a 2/3U rackmount case like this (http://www.xcase.co.uk/p/291517/queenserver-rm201-2u-rackmount-server---no-psu.html) and shove the switches and server into a nice 6-10U rack. Would make carrying the gear into the LAN and setting up really simple.

Hex

20th May 2007, 01:19

Is the quadcore really neccesary? By which I mean are the dedicated servers actually optimized to take advantage of it? C2D would cost approx half that amount I would guess.

Strings

20th May 2007, 01:20

Well yeh, something along those lines. But this isn't really the place to discuss this sort of thing in the end.

So let's leave it at the fact we are aiming to buy a nice server.

YegaDoyai

20th May 2007, 01:27

Hex, a quad core machine is 4 machines either using virtualisation to run different OSs or just running 4 server programs with 1 core dedicated to each. IE, one box = four server = less hassle more ownage.

Edit
It can be cheaper than Sid says, we don't need registered ram or a high spec mobo, we have dedicated 1GB/s add in cards and we do not intend to overclock. The server only runs for 48 hours every month so it should not exactly be stressed. 2*2GB is silly, 4*1Gb is cheaper and we are unlikely to need more in the next year, also it would be cheaper/easier to replace.

Sid

20th May 2007, 01:27

Strings: This is the AGM thread - this is the perfect place to discuss it.

Hex: No - it's not at all necessary at the moment. But that server will probably last the club 3-4 years or more, so it'd be a good investment. Building one quality system that'll last means that we won't find ourselves wanting to buy a secondary server in 2 years which would require a second case/power supply etc. not to mention the hassle of maintaining double the amount of servers. There isn't much else to spend the money on, either.

Hex

20th May 2007, 01:32

Hex, a quad core machine is 4 machines either using virtualisation to run different OSs or just running 4 server programs with 1 core dedicated to each. IE, one box = four server = less hassle more ownage.

Fair play I didn't think of virtualisation, and I wasnt aware you could actually dedicate cores to running programs. I'm not up on quad core utilization under 'nix lol.

Fair point sid, future proofing is enver a bad plan.

Muppet

20th May 2007, 01:37

YegaDoyai

20th May 2007, 02:10

Are rank mounts not quite expensive? Like, really expensive?

Muppet

20th May 2007, 02:19

Are rank mounts not quite expensive? Like, really expensive?

After having a quick glance at some, yeh :/

Would be better building our own tbh :p

Just had a wee talk with Sid and found a perfect cabinet on an eBay store for around £50 for a 7U cabinet - and with Sid's 2U rack server mentioned earlier and the 2 switches - it would be ideal.

LastChanceHotel

20th May 2007, 02:46

If we have extra money I think it'd be nice to stick it in a 2/3U rackmount case like this (http://www.xcase.co.uk/p/291517/queenserver-rm201-2u-rackmount-server---no-psu.html) and shove the switches and server into a nice 6-10U rack. Would make carrying the gear into the LAN and setting up really simple.

oh my god I would love for this to happen. This would make moving everything to LANs and setting up a million times easier: simply lift quarter rack into the back of my car, drive to venue, roll up ramp at QM, into lift, into Food Factory, unroll network cable bundles and turn on. awesome.

Is the quadcore really neccesary? By which I mean are the dedicated servers actually optimized to take advantage of it? C2D would cost approx half that amount I would guess.

Twice as much for twice the processing power? That sounds pretty sensible to me: means we don't have to upgrade later (which would throw away the value of one processor, and probably wouldn't support gameserver + another gameserver + fileserver at once, without one game getting crapped on.

IE, one box = four server = less hassle more ownage.

Infinitely less hassle. Less weight, too!

Are rank mounts not quite expensive? Like, really expensive?

We're talking circa £125 for a balls-to-the-wall awesome quarter rack on wheels, with a lockable front and cable management at the back. If I remember correctly (They use them for PA gear, too). Don't quote me on it, look in Misco or other catalogues.

Hell, we could put the PA amplifier into the same rackmount case!

LastChanceHotel

20th May 2007, 02:47

Just had a wee talk with Sid and found a perfect cabinet on an eBay store for around £50 for a 7U cabinet - and with Sid's 2U rack server mentioned earlier and the 2 switches - it would be ideal.

7u might do quite well, actually. Got a link?

Muppet

20th May 2007, 02:51

7u might do quite well, actually. Got a link?

Theres a selection here:

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/DIRECT-PRODUCTS_DATA-COMMS-CABINETS_W0QQfsubZ2QQfrsrcZ1

7u:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/7U-300MM-DEEP-DATA-CABINET-PATCH-PANEL-BUNDLE_W0QQitemZ140118799807QQihZ004QQcategoryZ108 993QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

Sid

20th May 2007, 02:58

YegaDoyai

20th May 2007, 03:32

It'd be quite nice if one of the committee members could do a full inventory of all the equipment Pause owns/has on loan, down as far as every component, and where it is currently situated.

Having these available at the AGM along with the full accounts for the year could be quite useful.

I suspect this won't be a problem, I know niall did an inventory sometime and the only changes since then are however many cables we have lost/gained to my knowledge. I'm back in glasgow this week for a bit so I can lend a hand if we need to count the cables again/anything else.

Also I never shop on ebay but yes that would be sweet. A nice compact rack with support for additional switches/server would be tasty, next problem is sourcing a cheap 1U server chassis + PSU. Or maybe we could get one of these babys (http://mini-itx.com/23333525). Yes it does say that the units are hotswappable = awesome.

Edit:

They have upped this puppy to run fucking C2Ds (http://ainkaboot.co.uk/octimod.php)!! We HAVE to get one!

Strings

20th May 2007, 03:36

In the end, two switches and a server aint hard to carry.

However, if you can source parts and come up with a relatively cheap price, this seems like a good idea.

Sid

20th May 2007, 04:01

In the end, two switches and a server aint hard to carry

Not hard at all. However, having the server and switches mounted in a case means we can have all of the network cables sorted and plugged in with appropriate lengths all sorted, grouped and tied. "Setting up" would be as simple as unrolling a few runs of pre-sorted networking cables and plugging the power in. Could get setup down to under an hour, I think.

Hex

20th May 2007, 11:19

I agree Yega, those things look very neat! Admittedly setup in under an hour would be pretty bitchin, no doubt once the AGM has been and gone the new treasurer can give us a figure we can reasonably spend on a new server and we can go from there.

phycho

21st May 2007, 16:28

Fyndir

21st May 2007, 16:30

....

...

..

JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

The scary man is using confusing techno-babble. ='(

Translate into troll-speak or troll smash.

phycho

21st May 2007, 16:34

haha! im sure lastchancehotel (and probably others) will know what iam talking about fyndir.

YegaDoyai

21st May 2007, 16:57

Hex

21st May 2007, 18:12

More than one server would be total overkill for a LAN of 20-30 people - unless we increase our active membership vastly there would be no need to run more than 1 server, it would be unnecessary hassle.

As for 'nix users, while I'd hardly call myself a pro, I know how to operate a linux box. Jan and Yega are also more than capable of this, but there are surely others? Sid, do you have 'nix experience?

Sid

21st May 2007, 18:29

Sid, do you have 'nix experience?
Nope. Have never seen the appeal. :)

Edit: Actually, that's not entirely true. I did "Physics 2T" (C programming in Linux) for credits one year. But that was fairly basic.

YegaDoyai

21st May 2007, 18:39

Are you suggesting that any of us did Sid? My knowledge was forced upon me. :p

Hex

21st May 2007, 18:41

Nope. Have never seen the appeal. :)

Hah, I know what you mean in a way, but 'nix has it's benefits. Your profile lists you as a Software Engineering student, if you study at Glasgow then come 3rd year you'll be forced to learn 'nix.

phycho

21st May 2007, 18:43

Let me recap phychos post

-1 rack mounting

-1 to big beefy machine

+1 'a few' smaller, capable servers running virtualisation

+1 a seperate machine for dedicated file serving, does not need to be beefy

That about cover it?

- yep i would think so.

Also, with regards to the virtualisation and load balancing, in general we will have 2 games running that could 'max' out a machine of the spec that we already have. A decent C2D would allow us to do all the things we want from one box which is much less hassle.

- depends what you define as hassle. all you need is a bare minimal install of centos on each node, with virtualisation software installed. anyone can learn a handfull of commands on how to manage it. the sysadmin could even write scripts to make this simpler.

If we were to expand to be able to run 2 20-30 man server at a lan then file servering would have to be shifted to another box but that is all, provided the C2D has enough memory.

the C2D would be fine for gameservers, but i highly recommend a seperate box with a meaty I/O subsystem for a fileserver. i just think the core2duo is a waste of money and the money could be better spend elsewhere. having more than one system for redundancy and it works out cheaper is a no-brainer. yes, it may be more of a hassle - but setup is only a one time thing, and given you have some form of structure to the setup just about anyone can login via putty and change a few configuration files and run a bash script.

I like the idea of smaller boxes running virtualisation but considering the knowledge that is required to get it running it limits us to HAVING to have a server admin.

to get it running ,yes. but to keep it running i would argue its just as simple as a standard installation - if a user can login and run a script, they can pretty much admin it properly.

If it is just a C2D running some variant of windows/linux then most folk can figure out what has gone wrong and get it working again. If the load balncing plays up or something goes wrong with the virtualisation software then we'd be boned for figuring it out and would have to rely on a reset to solve the problems.

see above.

Just something to consider, I don't really expect that it would be that much more work but there are some surprisingly non techno savvy people at the LAN and we cannot always make sure that a *nix user will be present.

agreed. however it couldnt be too much hassle for a sysadmin to write up a small A4 sheet of documentation of "what to do when it goes pear shaped".

answer yourself this - what happens if you go down the core2duo route with one server and it fails at an event. it pays to have some form of redundancy.

More than one server would be total overkill for a LAN of 20-30 people - unless we increase our active membership vastly there would be no need to run more than 1 server, it would be unnecessary hassle.

As for 'nix users, while I'd hardly call myself a pro, I know how to operate a linux box. Jan and Yega are also more than capable of this, but there are surely others? Sid, do you have 'nix experience?

Im not so sure i agree with that statement. multiple servers would be no different to having a core2duo other than price. even if you just have some as spare on standby or something incase the C2D fails.

I have nix experience also and would be willing to give up some gametime at an event to help out if need be.

Fyndir

21st May 2007, 18:53

If there was a catastrophic server failure then I would declare my machine a server, toss the hard drive from the server in (for dedicated server files) and go sleep in a corner. =P

Thanatos

21st May 2007, 20:08

Are you suggesting that any of us did Sid?

My MSN box was covering the 2nd half of ur message when it loaded. Was slightly confused when reading that out of context:-?

YegaDoyai

21st May 2007, 21:24

Damn, punctuation getting away from me again.

With regards to redundancy, the machine runs for 48 hrs every month, if it dies within 3 years I will personaly take it to Intel and get them to tell me why and then replace it with the most badass IA64 server they are making.

LastChanceHotel

21st May 2007, 21:25

I dont really see the point in the rackmount gear tbh, personally ive found the biggest headache is by far the cabling. however if cable ties are used and cabling is layed out into trunks, just throw it out between the desks and hey presto - instant cabling setup within a few mins. works really well and tested it at my last lan.

Rackmount is nice because of the transportation aspect. Last time, the server gear (cables + servers + routers + power + other crap) packed down into 2 bags, 4 boxes, two computers (one very large tower, too) and a luggage box. If we went the rack route, then we'd have two bags, 2 boxes, one rack and that's it. We'd lose most of the other miscellaneous crap that gets carted along "in case we need it", and I'd have one wheeled rack to transport.

re: virtualisation. virtualisation is also a good idea, however - good idea to not buy one major gameserver with 4 cores etc than to buy a couple of smaller ones - ebay is good for cheap hardware these days. can get 2400+ XP or there abouts for peanuts. get a few, run virtualisation technology on top and write scripts to migrate a VPS from one node to another if its under load. also works well for redundancy and is the method that i deploy myself.

Couple of things here. Virtualisation is all good - I use Xen as part of my business, and it kicks ass - but when we're dealing with LAN parties, simple is best. Let me explain:

Right back at the beginning of my 'term' so to speak, I tried to run some Source dedicated servers for most of the games we play, and it was one of the most inconvenient learning experiences of my life. It did work in the end, but the inconvenience of using Linux far outweighed any sort of advantage that was gleaned over XP.

I ended up throwing in the towel, breaking out a Windows XP install CD, shoved steam and the hldsupdatetool (thank god for being able to copy paste the extracted files from GCFs rather than have to download them all, ugh), and it worked with minimum effort. What's more, anyone who knew how to use Windows could double click a batch file and run a gameserver, then type some console commands if they wished, and close the gameserver just like that. It Made My Life Easier. what's more, it Made Everyone Elses Life Easier too, as they could do it if they wanted.

Of course, if I was doing it commercially I'd just make a bunch of Xen VM images, write an automatic rollout script, and the advantage of using linux + virtualisation would be time saved compared to pissing around installing Windows all day.

I'd like to point out you can lock different executables to different cores on Windows, and besides Windows will do a reasonable job of load balancing different processes across the different CPU cores anyway. We could simply run four tasks (or more), and windows will Just Deal With It (tm).

also works out a lot cheaper than one beefy machine.

Not really. If you consider the costs involved in building two machines (PSU, rackmount case (rackmount boxes are *expensive*), motherboard, processor, RAM, 3com/intel gigabit card....), we are basically getting double the number of cores for double the cost in processor price, rather than double the hardware price for all components, cases, etc. So, it may well work out cheaper to just double our cores for 'free' than build two seperate boxes (it'd be lighter,too). It simplifies hardware management: There's one less machine to go wrong, it's lighter, and it is a single point of management, which means it's not a pain to work out where a server instance is running, etc.

p.s. for a lan fileserver, best go with SATA2 which has NCQ and use raid - by far a meaty box is not going to help much here as disk I/O is by far the biggest problem.

Well, I was thinking - if we simply throw two 250GB drives on our one big box in raid 0, then we can get about 100MB/sec file transfers (which can be 'throttled' in windows, I believe), which is about all we'll need to saturate gigabit, when people are downloading stuff. However, when games are loading on the server (which happens infrequently), the games will basically mooch off the fileserver's free hard disk bandwidth. It might be a better idea to use the current 2400+ athlon server as a dedicated fileserver though, but there's no real harm in putting fileserver and gameservers together, provided we bump the disk IO priorities of the games up (or throttle the fileserver).

If i remember correctly the switch has two gigE ports - could even bond those together under linux. however, samba is pretty much *not* the way to go if you want decent fileserver performance - have tested this under load with balenced 10/100 nic's and it didnt perform too great.
First of all, nobody knows how to use anything but Samba (windows file sharing to everyone else) on their machines. We are definitely not going to want to use an HTTP server, or make people install NFS on their machines... I think this is once again an issue of "Sure, there are [slightly] better methods of solving the problem, but we choose not to use them in favour of what works for everyone". We could do channel bonding, sure - but what's the point? It peaks at about 40-50MB/sec (half of gigabit, measured on my desktop which was the old fileserver with RAID, which could push 90MB/sec over LAN) when everyone's desperately trying to copy fear combat or some other new game we're about to play... We hardly have enough clients to justify more than half gigabit :D

but to recap - by far its the cabling that takes the most time to setup during the day (or so we have found from past experience). build bundles of these and terminate them at different points it will speed the setup process up quite a bit. much quicker to throw out one trunk of about 10 cables each than to unwrap/wrap each of them individually.

Yeah, we discovered trunking 2 LANs ago. It helped immensely. the only real niggling issues regarding providing infrastructure at LANs currently are not fantastic performance on the gameserver (well, >2 gameservers = no), needing more cable ties, and having to lug loads of different boxes of kit around between setups (And unpack them, etc etc).

depends what you define as hassle. all you need is a bare minimal install of centos on each node, with virtualisation software installed. anyone can learn a handfull of commands on how to manage it. the sysadmin could even write scripts to make this simpler.

I mean, sure we could do that - but don't you think that's a bit overkill when windows XP on a quad core machine will work just fine, and 99% of people who can use windows can admin it? Is there much point in shifting to an infinitely more complicated solution that'll require a linux guru to fix if it goes wrong, when windows (which most anyone can fix) will work no problem?

i just think the core2duo is a waste of money and the money could be better spend elsewhere. having more than one system for redundancy and it works out cheaper is a no-brainer.

More of a waste of money than buying out-of-date hardware that won't be able to run newer, more demanding gameservers in the future?

to get it running ,yes. but to keep it running i would argue its just as simple as a standard installation - if a user can login and run a script, they can pretty much admin it properly.

It can indeed be that simple... if someone can justify spending the time and effort in making the script, ensuring everything works perfectly, providing support when things go wrong (which in linux, let's be honest, happens pretty often), and generally hand-holding and tutoring people through it. Most people don't know what Putty is, let alone how Screen works.. whereas everyone knows how to use Windows point-and-click. Just saying :P

agreed. however it couldnt be too much hassle for a sysadmin to write up a small A4 sheet of documentation of "what to do when it goes pear shaped".

I think a small A4 ringbinder might be a more appropriate idea, as loads of things can (and do) go wrong in linux, most of which you need to understand loads about the system to diagnose and fix. Linux is only a good option if you're going massively up-market: more than 5-10 gameservers and I'd drop Windows so fast...

answer yourself this - what happens if you go down the core2duo route with one server and it fails at an event. it pays to have some form of redundancy.

We'd find someone willing to let us use their machine, pop the gameserver disk in it, and away we'd go. If one of our 2-3 gameservers went pop during the LAN, that'd be far more hassle: we'd have to move stuff across between machines if we couldn't bring the node up, and we're almost certainly not going to want to use virtualisation when a single machine running a single OS will do the job just fine.

All in all, there are some very leet things indeed we could do - but as I tried and learned, the advantages are minimal.

If you start considering your admin time as £5 an hour at LANs, then it starts becoming very, very obvious that overkill solutions aren't the way to go.

Nothing personal btw :P - I was exactly the same when I started, and I ended up realising that it's not really worth the extra bother. We have the cash now, too - so it shouldn't really be a problem!

Jan

Thanatos

21st May 2007, 22:08

...and the award for the-most-number-of-quotes-in-one-post goes too....

YegaDoyai

21st May 2007, 22:23

+1 to what Jan said.

phycho

22nd May 2007, 14:21

Nothing personal btw :P - I was exactly the same when I started, and I ended up realising that it's not really worth the extra bother. We have the cash now, too - so it shouldn't really be a problem!

each to their own and all that - but personally, from any lan i have ran of my own in the past (and hope to run in the future) ill be taking the overkill route - just because a) i learn more and b) if it breaks, im the one who has to fix it anyway. as long as things are *well* tested, it isnt really a problem. I take your point that a K.I.S.S solution works best in terms of most (other) people know how to use it effectively when your not around to admin it.

my solution is somewhat overkill for a LAN party.

I understand if your time factor is most important, then windows + one box is the way to go. It takes a *lot* of time for me to do the other route, however thankfully it only has to be done once!

personally i think rackmount gear is overpriced and somewhat overkill - two or three desktop boxes and cabling + two switches can fit in a car boot just fine.
(and really not take that long to setup - big box, cabling and switches can all be situated already plugged in and wrapped up ready to go without the data cabinet).

however if you have the money as is, go for it.

p.s. as for what i would spend the money on (which nobody actually asked) - it would probably be a custom power setup because as things expand, its (eventually) going to be required.

More of a waste of money than buying out-of-date hardware that won't be able to run newer, more demanding gameservers in the future?

30-50quid for a board+cpu+ram (thrown in an old case) vs 400+? can skimp on the hdd and other components, doesnt even need a CD/DVD drive. no biggie. the only real reason i can see for multiple cores really is the "l33t" factor. if it ever gets to the stage where it wont run a particular game, just replace the board/cpu with something faster.

p.s. how about using bitorrent to distribute files across the lan off of a fileserver instead? no beefy machine required, faster speeds and most students i imagine know how to use a torrent client!

Sid

22nd May 2007, 14:55

I'm with the single box with windows camp on this one. We just can't guarantee that someone with a decent technical knowledge will be around for the full LAN, every LAN. A few years from now, we don't know who's going to be going to / running the club so we've got to go down a route that's easy to use quickly without much tech experience.

phycho: Yeah, sorry - if you like you should post exactly what your purchases would be for next year given say, £500-600 budget. I'm actually interested in your ideas, but would need a lot more convincing. I think the quad core would be pretty hard to beat even by multiples of any price range. 4 x A64s aren't going to be as quick.

Regarding torrenting, I'm not quite sure how that would work - wouldn't every seeder require to have the exact same file? At the moment, people just have a random collection of their own files and I think it would be very hard to organize such that a decent upload is going. I think this is far too much hassle. On the plus side we have our servers plugged into gigabit ports and using RAID = really fast and no hassle.

Phizz

22nd May 2007, 15:02

It's certainly something that needs to be brought up at the AGM so if both parties can bring proposals and maybe we could get a presentation? Might seem like a bit of overkill but I for one would like to see this opened to the entire society to vote on.

Uuurrahh

22nd May 2007, 15:13

maybe we could get a presentation?

Show me da slideshow!

YegaDoyai

22nd May 2007, 15:26

Euan your technical drawing skills are required for my presentation (I have been very impressed with your work in MS Paint), I shall forward you alist of the things I need drawn.

Edit:
Intel price drops ahoy!

http://www.dailytech.com/Intel+Readies+Price+Cuts+For+Quadcore+Desktop+Serv er+Processors/article7293.htm

Thanatos

22nd May 2007, 15:40

Euan your technical drawing skills are required for my presentation

Does that mean the AGM needs an NSFW tag now? :P

phycho

22nd May 2007, 16:35

A few years from now, we don't know who's going to be going to / running the club so we've got to go down a route that's easy to use quickly without much tech experience.

thats a good point actually! nice one sid. for my own event is always going to be myself + others - however for a uni run event the staff are going to change from year to year and what not - so it would require someone with vast technical knowledge if it went tits up. windows box is what most people are familiar with so seems the way to go for your particular setup. but *only* for that reason.

Regarding torrenting, I'm not quite sure how that would work - wouldn't every seeder require to have the exact same file? At the moment, people just have a random collection of their own files and I think it would be very hard to organize such that a decent upload is going.

everyone would require the same file - however... have one server seeding with 100mbit/1000mbit upload or w/e and let everyone download the torrent files from a samba share on that that - the more people that download the file, the better bandwidth you will have to seed.

this may not be much a problem at pause as is though - but its an idea for the future with regards to if the lan expands a lot more.

no hassle to setup a quick torrent tracker (theres even one for windows) and create .torrent files from the isos.

Hex

22nd May 2007, 17:42

Torrents would be total overkill IMO, the amount of actual filesharing that gets done is pretty minimal in my experience and what does happen is adequately managed with standard "samba" sharing. It might be worth burning 5 or 10 DVDs containing all the latest patches and any free games that people are likely to play, DVDs cost fuck all so we could just hand these round at each LAN for anyone who's not up to date. Sometimes lower tech methods are just as effective, and a lot less hassle.

Strings

22nd May 2007, 17:56

Been chatting to a few people from some LAN groups in England. They apparently use DC++ to quite a good effect. Their numbers are, if nothing, smaller than ours so it may be worth looking into.

LastChanceHotel

22nd May 2007, 19:06

agggggghhhh, so much to post in reply.

I will return later tonight with a humungous post, but for the time being I'm going to finish my revision, so I actually pass my exam tomorrow.

CaNNoN_FoDDa

22nd May 2007, 19:57

Sid

22nd May 2007, 20:11

Regarding file-sharing: i was under the impression that generally speaking there isnt a lot of file-sharing at lans (apart from trial copies of games) and that it was sort-of discouraged.

Obviously there is a bit of file-sharing, but not on a large scale (in my experience). I'm sure Jan can correct me (when he's done his exam - good luck btw).

"File sharing" does not equal "illegal". I believe there is a lot of file sharing at our LANs and I hope it continues. It's a great way for people who don't have a great internet connection to obtain patches and demos.

CaNNoN_FoDDa

22nd May 2007, 20:13

I didnt say that. I remember it being discouraged in general (i think by jan), probably for bandwidth reasons.

Naturally, i can't be arsed trying to find the relevant post.

LastChanceHotel

22nd May 2007, 21:38

ill be taking the overkill route - just because a) i learn more and b) if it breaks, im the one who has to fix it anyway. as long as things are *well* tested, it isnt really a problem. I take your point that a K.I.S.S solution works best in terms of most (other) people know how to use it effectively when your not around to admin it.
The learning route is one that I took elsewhere (as part of my business), and hence that factor isn't present as much as it was before: doing server admin for LANs takes up enough time as it is without me having to budget in 30+ hours prior to each LAN to try and get a slightly better method perfected.

I understand if your time factor is most important, then windows + one box is the way to go. It takes a *lot* of time for me to do the other route, however thankfully it only has to be done once!
Well, kinda. Inevitably you find a slightly better way of doing it, or some limitation of the method you used that requires you to learn and implement a whole chunk of other crap to do (eg, GUI-based configuration of servers for noobs at the wheel, in terms of linux vs. windows). I for one have to deal with enough crap from Linux at 'work' - I don't need it at LANs too, when the people complaining are much, much closer!

personally i think rackmount gear is overpriced and somewhat overkill - two or three desktop boxes and cabling + two switches can fit in a car boot just fine.
(and really not take that long to setup - big box, cabling and switches can all be situated already plugged in and wrapped up ready to go without the data cabinet).
however if you have the money as is, go for it.

The money is basically 'not an issue' for what we're likely to spec up and buy. It's the convenience factor I'm trying to promote: it reduces the amount of effort, time and number of bodies required to set up at a LAN.

p.s. as for what i would spend the money on (which nobody actually asked) - it would probably be a custom power setup because as things expand, its (eventually) going to be required.
This is an option. Seeing as I am secretly a qualified electrician (Gasp!), we could probably do with putting together some power plans. However, as we normally choose a pretty small-ish venue with multiple 13A sockets, rather than a big fat 50A blue-plug socket, this would be both a) unsafe and b) a pain in the ass to do. This is a lot better done when we have a specific venue in mind and embedded in the club, as if we invest now on a proper power distribution system, we will have nothing to plug it into. What's more we can't run it down to Qudos because big fat 50A armoured cable is fucking eyebleedingly expensive.

30-50quid for a board+cpu+ram (thrown in an old case) vs 400+? can skimp on the hdd and other components, doesnt even need a CD/DVD drive. no biggie. the only real reason i can see for multiple cores really is the "l33t" factor. if it ever gets to the stage where it wont run a particular game, just replace the board/cpu with something faster.
The ancilliary costs shoot right up, and it adds a lot to the 'inconvenience' factor. We already have enough nasty, nasty secondhand cases floating around for gameservers (read: one - have you seen it?!), and this is something I (and I suspect everyone who has to carry it) would prefer to steer clear from. Yes, you have a very valid point, but we've been doing it 'the ghetto way' for over 2 years now, and I think it's time we splashed out and actually paid for some convenience and leetness, rather than ghettotastic solutions!

p.s. how about using bitorrent to distribute files across the lan off of a fileserver instead? no beefy machine required, faster speeds and most students i imagine know how to use a torrent client!

That's probably not gonna fly. If you run a file transfer in windows file sharing running in the background while you play games, all it's gonna do is hog the network and a little bit of CPU. Azureus, however... will quite happily use 250MB+ of memory, loads of disk IO (hash checking) and plenty of other things. The same applies in lesser amounts to other clients too. But the main point is "Windows File Sharing works for everyone by default, Do the advantages of shifting to a propreitary platform outweigh the disadvantages?"

We just can't guarantee that someone with a decent technical knowledge will be around for the full LAN, every LAN. A few years from now, we don't know who's going to be going to / running the club so we've got to go down a route that's easy to use quickly without much tech experience.

I intend to hang around in the club for quite a while, but I can't guarantee I'll always be there! For instance, I'm going to Florida before this coming LAN, which makes me very damn glad I chose windows for the gameserver rather than Linux.

On the plus side we have our servers plugged into gigabit ports and using RAID = really fast and no hassle.
Exactly. Minimal hassle, good performance, minimal cost.

It's certainly something that needs to be brought up at the AGM so if both parties can bring proposals and maybe we could get a presentation? Might seem like a bit of overkill but I for one would like to see this opened to the entire society to vote on.

I think this would be wise. Perhaps we could put together a short presentation detailing each side of the argument, then have some discussion of the advantages/disadvantages of each? (then have a vote)

Euan your technical drawing skills are required for my presentation (I have been very impressed with your work in MS Paint), I shall forward you alist of the things I need drawn.

Hahahahahaha, you must post slides on the forum once you're done.

Edit:
Intel price drops ahoy!
http://www.dailytech.com/Intel+Readies+Price+Cuts+For+Quadcore+Desktop+Serv er+Processors/article7293.htm

Ow, AMD - that's gotta hurt! I can see Fyndir working for Intel, his troll hips at it.. in, out.. in, out...

In that case I shall be waiting until the very last second of my return to the UK to buy a (or maybe two Xeons?) C2Q.

Does that mean the AGM needs an NSFW tag now? :P
Let's hope Fyndir doesn't bribe him into doing artwork for him, and turns up wanting to do a presentation detailing his desire to do something to Hex. :P

this may not be much a problem at pause as is though - but its an idea for the future with regards to if the lan expands a lot more.

I think we'd be looking into some kind of web-based file sharing thing in the future, perhaps using Torrents would be the most efficient but then again, maybe links to files in the fileshares would do the trick too.

Regarding file-sharing: i was under the impression that generally speaking there isnt a lot of file-sharing at lans (apart from trial copies of games) and that it was sort-of discouraged.

*nearly chokes to death* What? not a lot of filesharing at lans?! Well, this all depends on if you count visible (ie, "go grab X off my machine!" filesharing, or "whoops I left E:\Movies\, E:\Games\ and E:\Music shared by accident for the entire LAN! Oh noes - the combination of my Gigabit port and 1TB RAID 0 partition must've been the reason my games stuttered a little bit every so often... Oh well!" filesharing) :D

Obviously there is a bit of file-sharing, but not on a large scale (in my experience). I'm sure Jan can correct me (when he's done his exam - good luck btw).

Personally, I would love to see filesharing and media sharing in general play a larger part at LANs - there's a wealth of stuff that people end up collecting, and LANs can be just like swapmeets... You share your videos, and pick up ones you think look interesting. You legitimately borrow Fyndir's legitimately backed up MP3 collection, realise that most of it is Death Metal or utter garbage, and delete the whole thing in a fit of white-noise induced fury. Things like that.

Ahem.

In general, people 'don't like to talk about it' because they're afraid that the LAN organisers disapprove, who in turn 'don't like to talk about it' because they're afraid that the club sponsors will disapprove, and so on - when really, everybody does it (quietly), and nobody gives a monkeys. :P

So, it's far from dead, but it's far from public, too.

I remember it being discouraged in general (i think by jan), probably for bandwidth reasons.

Another *Choke* moment here. It's discouraged in general (ie, 'officially') by the club to 'prevent trouble' and to give us plausible deniability - and indeed it was frowned upon when we had our early 10/100-only network... Now we have a gigabit backbone all the way to the fileserver (which normally has an open 'upload your shit here' folder), people can fileshare with impunity, and the only people they'll possibly affect is their own game, and the game of the person they're leeching from. (which is possibly why it's frowned upon in general :D)

Anyway, another humungous post, I'm sure you all get the idea by now. :D

Thanatos

22nd May 2007, 21:51

wow u actually beat the number of quotes from a couple of pages ago by 4 quotes. well done :P

Hex

22nd May 2007, 22:01

Jan, plausible deniability is kinda redundant if you go spouting off about it on a public forum. I suggest you edit your posts :-P

Otherwise I thoroughly agree, the plan atm seems to be to build a better gameserver but stick to the simplest configuration going. After all, an increase in membership (should it happen) would bring in more revenue and allow us to buy more servers as needed.

Also with regards to the filesharing, a wee bit of forward planning would help. I suggest we stick a list somewhere of all Games we will ever likely play (especially free ones such as FEAR combat) so that people to can download them if poss before the LAN. Equally if everyone could remember to check for patches and update their games the night before a LAN this would help. I'm sure most people already do this, just saying.

phycho

23rd May 2007, 00:44

cant say ive got much to add to that - other than i agree on the proposal idea and should i be able to attend the AGM (hope to be able to make it!) then ill let you know in advance.

haha, ive seen that massive server case - sat in the middle on the table for the first one i was at. not really required.

only thing i might add is that utorrent is *Very* lightweight on resources (would have to be to run on my rig!) and as you probably know can cap the bandwidth on the upstream. That was what i was implying from the supply - kinda suspected the disco place below would have 3phase for expansion but no idea on the implementation costs of that (and whether you would indeed be allowed to tap it!).

YegaDoyai

23rd May 2007, 01:11

LastChanceHotel

23rd May 2007, 07:02

I'd like to see how close we are to maxing out our supplies and may well look into it. With folk shifting to TFTs this reduces the overall load but I suspect that we should at least double check to ensure there is minimal risk to our machines.

This would be a good idea for a small amount of our funding: for about a tenner, we can get a plug-in ammeter for 240v mains. We could just plug this in at one of the final runs of mains cable and see what it reads... although more would obviously be handy (although would drive the cost up).

Regarding tapping the 3-phase they have downstairs, it'd just be a matter of getting permission (ie, proving competence - so my certificates might have to come out), then finding a way of doing a safe cable run upstairs. Perhaps we should investigate alternative 3-phase breakout connections (or other high-current sources) near the food factory, maybe there will be one in the kitchen that we've overlooked.

phycho

23rd May 2007, 21:43

This would be a good idea for a small amount of our funding: for about a tenner, we can get a plug-in ammeter for 240v mains. We could just plug this in at one of the final runs of mains cable and see what it reads... although more would obviously be handy (although would drive the cost up).

Regarding tapping the 3-phase they have downstairs, it'd just be a matter of getting permission (ie, proving competence - so my certificates might have to come out), then finding a way of doing a safe cable run upstairs. Perhaps we should investigate alternative 3-phase breakout connections (or other high-current sources) near the food factory, maybe there will be one in the kitchen that we've overlooked.

one in the kitchen would be ideal. downstairs is very likely to have it, but they probably wouldnt let you take the out the window approach ;) i dont think running it up the stairs between floors would be an option either. need a more genius way of doing things i think!. I guess asking at the AGM would be a good idea.

Fyndir

23rd May 2007, 21:52

one in the kitchen would be ideal. downstairs is very likely to have it, but they probably wouldnt let you take the out the window approach

Pft, it works alright for the network cable.. =P

LastChanceHotel

23rd May 2007, 23:48

Pft, it works alright for the network cable.. =P

Yeah, but that's only troll-penis width. This power cable is like Goatse's-Lover penis width.

Fyndir

23rd May 2007, 23:49

Yeah, but that's only troll-penis width. This power cable is like Goatse's-Lover penis width.

Troll Smash puny Jan!

DAve

24th May 2007, 11:01

Eww. Troll and Jan penis fight.

Quick, I need a fork for my eyes!

Hex

24th May 2007, 12:02

Eww. Troll and Jan penis fight.

Quick, I need a fork for my eyes!

*hands fork*

Sorry about the blood, I had to use it first.

Captain_Caveman

25th May 2007, 01:57

It is more than likely there will be a 3-phase running the kitchen for the food factory. The more pressing question would be whether we would be able to use it. As with most 3-phase for industry they are not exactly easy to access. Probably powering the cookers and ovens and stuff they won't have free sockets kicking about.

Uuurrahh

25th May 2007, 10:48

Yeah, but that's only troll-penis width. This power cable is like Goatse's-Lover penis width.

A backhanded compliment. How appreciated.

brialzebub

28th May 2007, 12:17

They do have 3-phase in the kitchen of the food factory, however the likelihood of you being allowed to get near it is minimal. They'd have to open the usually-locked kitchen door at the side nearest where you usually LAN, but that would give access to the entire back area since there are no interal locked bits after that. You'd be able to get everywhere, including the stock area. Add to that the potential hygiene issues of random gamers mankying up a food prep area ;) ...

Anyway... there may be a 3-phase outlet outside of the kitchen area itself since Im sure that there have been mini-gigs set up in the area of LAN-ness. Although come to think of it there were suspiciously power-cable like things headed towards that kitchen door. I'm sure the best thing to do would be to ask... but I think the answer will be no, unless someone contacts the general manager directly and has uberleet diplomacy mad sk1lls.

Oh yeah, I also just thought... telling the QM that you need to tap into their 3-phase cos you are sucking out enough leccy to power a small fairground might make them reconsider not charging for the use of the food factory... just a thought. :)

Strings

28th May 2007, 15:19

I agree it's questionable whether they'd let us use the power... but we've always had access to the food prep area. Since we stored cake and stuff in there, we were always allowed to just go to the fridge and grab it whenever we felt like it.

So I wouldn't imagine the back area would be much of an issue.